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	<title>Comments on: A Rare Post About Femininity</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.feministfred.com/archives/71/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.feministfred.com/archives/71</link>
	<description>Radical feminism for humans with male parts.</description>
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		<title>By: Fred</title>
		<link>http://www.feministfred.com/archives/71/comment-page-1#comment-519</link>
		<dc:creator>Fred</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Jan 2009 19:55:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministfred.com/?p=71#comment-519</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not for feminine or masculine, I&#039;m for human. 

I&#039;m having a hard time finding the words you&#039;ve put in my mouth in this post, to be honest. Your assumptions are of someone else, not me. Because I&#039;m pretty much in agreement with your criticisms of the person you think I am.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not for feminine or masculine, I&#8217;m for human. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m having a hard time finding the words you&#8217;ve put in my mouth in this post, to be honest. Your assumptions are of someone else, not me. Because I&#8217;m pretty much in agreement with your criticisms of the person you think I am.</p>
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		<title>By: heartsleeve</title>
		<link>http://www.feministfred.com/archives/71/comment-page-1#comment-518</link>
		<dc:creator>heartsleeve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Jan 2009 05:41:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministfred.com/?p=71#comment-518</guid>
		<description>I would suggest you reconsider the argument you are making.

What you are essentially arguing is that women abandon &quot;femininity&quot; in favor of &quot;masculinity&quot; so that they may escape rape. Ignoring that the motive here is ridiculous, what you are arguing merely reinforces a patriarchal power structure where &quot;masculine&quot; is placed above &quot;feminine.&quot; Suggesting that it is the trappings of femininity, and not the values patriarchy has placed on said femininity, that makes femininity &quot;bad&quot; or &quot;vulnerable&quot; or &quot;weak,&quot; only means that you agree with the patriarchal power structure that GIVES masculinity its positive connotations and takes them away from femininity.

Moreover, the fact that you would argue that MASCULINE is merely &quot;unadorned human...&quot; NO. If the default, if the &quot;neutral&quot; is what is socially coded as masculine...do you not SEE how pervasive the predominance of masculinity IS in your understanding of gender? If masculine is neutral, and feminine is only excess and waste, then A) you promote gender stereotypes, and B) you devalue all that has historically been considered female. Not everything that has been coded female is BAD. And not everything that has been coded male is good. And you really need to take a step back from your argument and deprogram your view of gender as a strict dichotomy of good/bad, right/wrong, neutral/coded. 

Honestly, I came to this blog expecting a more intelligent discourse on feminism, and instead, I get an argument that even a novice feminist 40 years ago would have raged against. 

While I think women and men should not be forced to abide by what is socially considered to be masculine or feminine fashion or mannerisms, I think that if women LIKE femininity, as it were, and if they like wearing their hair long or shaving their legs or wearing make-up, things that are by no means gender-exclusive in other cultures and therefore should not be assumed to be default gender-exclusive in general, they should feel safe and comfortable in the attire they choose, in the mannerisms they feel most comfortable with. They should not have to change themselves for fear of men who have no respect for women, who would take advantage of and hurt women purely on the basis of their biology. Not only are you affirming the power of patriarchal masculinity by suggesting women would be better that way than in whatever way they are now, but you are also doing it in assuming it is women who must change in order to accommodate sick men.

It&#039;s bad enough we have to carry mace or take self-defense classes or avoid going out after dark alone. Now we have to dress how YOU dress to be safe? Not only do I think it is silly to assume that dressing like a man would protect you, but I also think it&#039;s offensive to suggest that somehow masculinity is better. And you don&#039;t only suggest it when you say that we should change to avoid rape. You also say it when you dismiss the time and money women put into their beauty regimen as a waste, as something they would be better off without. Who are you to judge? And maybe there are those who would appreciate it if you invested a little more time in your personal appearance. Regardless, it&#039;s not for you or anyone else to decide how anyone should dress or should act. We should all do as we feel most comfortable and most happy. I don&#039;t think this is achieved by forcing yourself to abide by just another gender stereotype.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would suggest you reconsider the argument you are making.</p>
<p>What you are essentially arguing is that women abandon &#8220;femininity&#8221; in favor of &#8220;masculinity&#8221; so that they may escape rape. Ignoring that the motive here is ridiculous, what you are arguing merely reinforces a patriarchal power structure where &#8220;masculine&#8221; is placed above &#8220;feminine.&#8221; Suggesting that it is the trappings of femininity, and not the values patriarchy has placed on said femininity, that makes femininity &#8220;bad&#8221; or &#8220;vulnerable&#8221; or &#8220;weak,&#8221; only means that you agree with the patriarchal power structure that GIVES masculinity its positive connotations and takes them away from femininity.</p>
<p>Moreover, the fact that you would argue that MASCULINE is merely &#8220;unadorned human&#8230;&#8221; NO. If the default, if the &#8220;neutral&#8221; is what is socially coded as masculine&#8230;do you not SEE how pervasive the predominance of masculinity IS in your understanding of gender? If masculine is neutral, and feminine is only excess and waste, then A) you promote gender stereotypes, and B) you devalue all that has historically been considered female. Not everything that has been coded female is BAD. And not everything that has been coded male is good. And you really need to take a step back from your argument and deprogram your view of gender as a strict dichotomy of good/bad, right/wrong, neutral/coded. </p>
<p>Honestly, I came to this blog expecting a more intelligent discourse on feminism, and instead, I get an argument that even a novice feminist 40 years ago would have raged against. </p>
<p>While I think women and men should not be forced to abide by what is socially considered to be masculine or feminine fashion or mannerisms, I think that if women LIKE femininity, as it were, and if they like wearing their hair long or shaving their legs or wearing make-up, things that are by no means gender-exclusive in other cultures and therefore should not be assumed to be default gender-exclusive in general, they should feel safe and comfortable in the attire they choose, in the mannerisms they feel most comfortable with. They should not have to change themselves for fear of men who have no respect for women, who would take advantage of and hurt women purely on the basis of their biology. Not only are you affirming the power of patriarchal masculinity by suggesting women would be better that way than in whatever way they are now, but you are also doing it in assuming it is women who must change in order to accommodate sick men.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s bad enough we have to carry mace or take self-defense classes or avoid going out after dark alone. Now we have to dress how YOU dress to be safe? Not only do I think it is silly to assume that dressing like a man would protect you, but I also think it&#8217;s offensive to suggest that somehow masculinity is better. And you don&#8217;t only suggest it when you say that we should change to avoid rape. You also say it when you dismiss the time and money women put into their beauty regimen as a waste, as something they would be better off without. Who are you to judge? And maybe there are those who would appreciate it if you invested a little more time in your personal appearance. Regardless, it&#8217;s not for you or anyone else to decide how anyone should dress or should act. We should all do as we feel most comfortable and most happy. I don&#8217;t think this is achieved by forcing yourself to abide by just another gender stereotype.</p>
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		<title>By: Fred</title>
		<link>http://www.feministfred.com/archives/71/comment-page-1#comment-487</link>
		<dc:creator>Fred</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Sep 2008 14:49:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministfred.com/?p=71#comment-487</guid>
		<description>My wife is a red head with near to no body hair at all. Yet she still shaves her legs because she&#039;s afraid people will see her tiny, invisible hair. 

I was using shorthand for clothing that means nothing feminine, of course, but have since realized that we have different upper body issues that need to be addressed for comfort, too. Some of the looser parts of our bodies like to be cradled or supported when we need to move around a lot.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My wife is a red head with near to no body hair at all. Yet she still shaves her legs because she&#8217;s afraid people will see her tiny, invisible hair. </p>
<p>I was using shorthand for clothing that means nothing feminine, of course, but have since realized that we have different upper body issues that need to be addressed for comfort, too. Some of the looser parts of our bodies like to be cradled or supported when we need to move around a lot.</p>
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		<title>By: belenen</title>
		<link>http://www.feministfred.com/archives/71/comment-page-1#comment-486</link>
		<dc:creator>belenen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Sep 2008 13:44:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministfred.com/?p=71#comment-486</guid>
		<description>btw I syndicated you on LJ so I could easily keep up with you ;-)

http://syndicated.livejournal.com/feministfred/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>btw I syndicated you on LJ so I could easily keep up with you ;-)</p>
<p><a href="http://syndicated.livejournal.com/feministfred/" rel="nofollow">http://syndicated.livejournal.com/feministfred/</a></p>
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		<title>By: belenen</title>
		<link>http://www.feministfred.com/archives/71/comment-page-1#comment-485</link>
		<dc:creator>belenen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Sep 2008 13:42:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministfred.com/?p=71#comment-485</guid>
		<description>I haven&#039;t shaved in years -- and nobody ever stares.  That fear comes from a habit of comparing.  If I go around looking at all other women and rating them in comparison to myself, then I will expect them to do the same to me, and I will see that in every glance.  However, if I appreciate everyone as beautiful for being unique, then I will expect the same admiration from others, and when people glance at me that is what I will see.  

As far as &#039;feminine&#039; accessories, I&#039;ve got the short hair, short nails, hairy legs, hairy pits, no fake-natural makeup like concealer (if I&#039;ve got a pimple, I&#039;m not going to hide it because WOMEN GET THEM TOO) -- if I wear makeup it is wildly colorful and hides no &#039;flaw&#039;, no hair products, no bras, no girdles or control-top anything, no fancy shoes (I have one pair of tennis shoes which is all I ever wear).

I&#039;ve been tempted to hide my shape and wear only that which is androgynous, but I find those clothes uncomfortable and inexpressive.  I decided that just like I should not let ideas of &#039;femininity&#039; decide what I SHOULD wear, I should also not let them decide what I SHOULDN&#039;T wear.  So I wear strappy tops that give me a little support so that I can comfortably go braless, and most of the time I wear skirts.  I think that my hairiness and mismatched socks and tennis shoes contradict the &#039;femininity&#039; of the skirt enough to give a categorizer a headache.  Not to mention that pants made to fit my size and hips are, in my mind, more &#039;feminine&#039; than skirts, because of the restrictiveness of them.

On jeans -- they&#039;re considered androgynous but they are NOT.  Most women who wear them wear tight-enough-to-be-a-corset, slim-you-down, restrict-your-movement-and-breathing jeans.  Men wear comfortable jeans that don&#039;t squeeze anything -- these are very very very different items that have in common only the fact that they are made from denim.  Now if women wore &#039;men&#039;s&#039; (aka comfortable &amp; useful) jeans, that would be a step up.  But the fact is that women&#039;s fashion tends toward anything that restricts or cripples (such as high heels), and jeans are a very strong example of this.  I used to wear jeans so tight they made me numb from bellybutton to knees -- no more.  I made myself a promise years ago that I will never again wear restrictive or uncomfortable clothing.  I think that if women simply changed to that which is comfortable, most women would have to change out at least 3/4ths of their wardrobe.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I haven&#8217;t shaved in years &#8212; and nobody ever stares.  That fear comes from a habit of comparing.  If I go around looking at all other women and rating them in comparison to myself, then I will expect them to do the same to me, and I will see that in every glance.  However, if I appreciate everyone as beautiful for being unique, then I will expect the same admiration from others, and when people glance at me that is what I will see.  </p>
<p>As far as &#8216;feminine&#8217; accessories, I&#8217;ve got the short hair, short nails, hairy legs, hairy pits, no fake-natural makeup like concealer (if I&#8217;ve got a pimple, I&#8217;m not going to hide it because WOMEN GET THEM TOO) &#8212; if I wear makeup it is wildly colorful and hides no &#8216;flaw&#8217;, no hair products, no bras, no girdles or control-top anything, no fancy shoes (I have one pair of tennis shoes which is all I ever wear).</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve been tempted to hide my shape and wear only that which is androgynous, but I find those clothes uncomfortable and inexpressive.  I decided that just like I should not let ideas of &#8216;femininity&#8217; decide what I SHOULD wear, I should also not let them decide what I SHOULDN&#8217;T wear.  So I wear strappy tops that give me a little support so that I can comfortably go braless, and most of the time I wear skirts.  I think that my hairiness and mismatched socks and tennis shoes contradict the &#8216;femininity&#8217; of the skirt enough to give a categorizer a headache.  Not to mention that pants made to fit my size and hips are, in my mind, more &#8216;feminine&#8217; than skirts, because of the restrictiveness of them.</p>
<p>On jeans &#8212; they&#8217;re considered androgynous but they are NOT.  Most women who wear them wear tight-enough-to-be-a-corset, slim-you-down, restrict-your-movement-and-breathing jeans.  Men wear comfortable jeans that don&#8217;t squeeze anything &#8212; these are very very very different items that have in common only the fact that they are made from denim.  Now if women wore &#8216;men&#8217;s&#8217; (aka comfortable &amp; useful) jeans, that would be a step up.  But the fact is that women&#8217;s fashion tends toward anything that restricts or cripples (such as high heels), and jeans are a very strong example of this.  I used to wear jeans so tight they made me numb from bellybutton to knees &#8212; no more.  I made myself a promise years ago that I will never again wear restrictive or uncomfortable clothing.  I think that if women simply changed to that which is comfortable, most women would have to change out at least 3/4ths of their wardrobe.</p>
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		<title>By: belenen</title>
		<link>http://www.feministfred.com/archives/71/comment-page-1#comment-484</link>
		<dc:creator>belenen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Sep 2008 13:40:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministfred.com/?p=71#comment-484</guid>
		<description>&quot;The argument that you’re just as liable to be raped dressed up as dressed down&quot;

not only does it not make sense, it implies that the only reason to dress one way or another would be to avoid rape.  Yes, rape is a very real issue that affects every part of our lives, but that does not mean we should allow the threat of it to affect our every decision.  If none of us stand against the flow then we can build no strength against the rapist mentality -- the idea that by wearing clothing that fits or does not fit the ideal, we are giving consent to be used sexually.  When we catch ourselves living in fear of rape, we need to try to find a way to break free of it; if we don&#039;t, we are giving away our power.  If we allow rapists to dictate our clothing choices, we are allowing them to invade our lives even when they are not violating us sexually.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The argument that you’re just as liable to be raped dressed up as dressed down&#8221;</p>
<p>not only does it not make sense, it implies that the only reason to dress one way or another would be to avoid rape.  Yes, rape is a very real issue that affects every part of our lives, but that does not mean we should allow the threat of it to affect our every decision.  If none of us stand against the flow then we can build no strength against the rapist mentality &#8212; the idea that by wearing clothing that fits or does not fit the ideal, we are giving consent to be used sexually.  When we catch ourselves living in fear of rape, we need to try to find a way to break free of it; if we don&#8217;t, we are giving away our power.  If we allow rapists to dictate our clothing choices, we are allowing them to invade our lives even when they are not violating us sexually.</p>
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