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	<title>Comments on: Feminist Dad: Dropping Trou in Front of the Kid</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.feministfred.com/archives/28/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.feministfred.com/archives/28</link>
	<description>A place for men to learn about feminism.</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 05 Dec 2008 10:22:25 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Fred</title>
		<link>http://www.feministfred.com/archives/28#comment-210</link>
		<dc:creator>Fred</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Feb 2008 02:59:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministfred.com/archives/28#comment-210</guid>
		<description>The reasoning behind nine-year-olds needing thongs is that they have mothers who think that pleasing men is the most important aspect of dressing. This is something women tell each other through approval/disapproval and which men tell women by showing lust. These mothers aren't sensitive enough to make a distinction between pleasing men, pleasing each other, and the desires created by advertising and fashion. 

This is just one reason why feminism is an essential tool for women to examine their world and culture with. The first concern of feminism is educating women, which some of the blogs on my blogroll do a good job with.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The reasoning behind nine-year-olds needing thongs is that they have mothers who think that pleasing men is the most important aspect of dressing. This is something women tell each other through approval/disapproval and which men tell women by showing lust. These mothers aren&#8217;t sensitive enough to make a distinction between pleasing men, pleasing each other, and the desires created by advertising and fashion. </p>
<p>This is just one reason why feminism is an essential tool for women to examine their world and culture with. The first concern of feminism is educating women, which some of the blogs on my blogroll do a good job with.</p>
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		<title>By: Lars L.</title>
		<link>http://www.feministfred.com/archives/28#comment-209</link>
		<dc:creator>Lars L.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Feb 2008 23:35:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministfred.com/archives/28#comment-209</guid>
		<description>On the subject of children clothing I know that for a fact to have changed for the worse, for example a few years ago there was a case with a teenage girl who had gone into a store and pulled all the g-strings down into a box and removed them, she was offcourse stopped for this and there came media attention around it, wich was what she wanted.

The g-strings where designed for the age category of nine year old girls, when the board heard of this they unanimously dropped the charges and removed the product line, now a happy ending? I don't think so, firstly the product line appeared in the first place showing that there is a market for this sort of stuff -things like this would not come into the shops if no one wants to buy them, I do not believe in the shops having any morality or any specific desire to promote sexuality, I believe them interested in one thing only: profit.
This means that there was a market for it, and thats scary in itself, the next part is that its in no way illegal to produce and sell this kind of clothing despite it promoting sexuality towards pre-teen girls, I write towards because they are too young to understand the meaning themselves, wich indicates an adult interest into this subject. Nine year old girls can't afford to buy their own clothes yet after all.
Finally, would anything have happened to change the product line had there not been media attention around this? I think not.

On your daughter again, I can completly understand your reasoning, and I wish that the world we lived in did not need such a distinction, I still believe that you may take it a tad too far though in your approach, mostly because I believe it indirectly puts the childs attention on it as something sexual, wich it should'nt be at all in that age.
Then again, how else should one warn his or her child about abuse?

Not an easy problem to solve I think.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On the subject of children clothing I know that for a fact to have changed for the worse, for example a few years ago there was a case with a teenage girl who had gone into a store and pulled all the g-strings down into a box and removed them, she was offcourse stopped for this and there came media attention around it, wich was what she wanted.</p>
<p>The g-strings where designed for the age category of nine year old girls, when the board heard of this they unanimously dropped the charges and removed the product line, now a happy ending? I don&#8217;t think so, firstly the product line appeared in the first place showing that there is a market for this sort of stuff -things like this would not come into the shops if no one wants to buy them, I do not believe in the shops having any morality or any specific desire to promote sexuality, I believe them interested in one thing only: profit.<br />
This means that there was a market for it, and thats scary in itself, the next part is that its in no way illegal to produce and sell this kind of clothing despite it promoting sexuality towards pre-teen girls, I write towards because they are too young to understand the meaning themselves, wich indicates an adult interest into this subject. Nine year old girls can&#8217;t afford to buy their own clothes yet after all.<br />
Finally, would anything have happened to change the product line had there not been media attention around this? I think not.</p>
<p>On your daughter again, I can completly understand your reasoning, and I wish that the world we lived in did not need such a distinction, I still believe that you may take it a tad too far though in your approach, mostly because I believe it indirectly puts the childs attention on it as something sexual, wich it should&#8217;nt be at all in that age.<br />
Then again, how else should one warn his or her child about abuse?</p>
<p>Not an easy problem to solve I think.</p>
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		<title>By: Fred</title>
		<link>http://www.feministfred.com/archives/28#comment-208</link>
		<dc:creator>Fred</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Feb 2008 16:33:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministfred.com/archives/28#comment-208</guid>
		<description>I agree with you. If we lived in a world where the majority of people were as sane as you and I it would be wonderful. But if I tell my daughter that nudity is OK sometimes and a sexual act other times, depending on who the man is, it seems needlessly confusing. 

I don't need for her to see my genitals. It might be convenient sometimes, but I see no pressing, urgent need. Seeing them will cause a confusing set of conditional circumstances where she must be able to distinguish when it is bad and when it is good and to fathom the hundreds of kinds of motivations behind each set of circumstances related to each set of different categories of men for her to come to a decision as to whether she is being used as a sexual object in a fetish of exhibitionism or if someone is just sunbathing or changing his clothes.

This is all way too much for a four year old to understand. My motivation isn't simple prudery, it is to help her understand that men who show their genitals to her are doing something they should be punished for. In order for this to be clear and without ambiguity that could be exploited by anyone, I shall decline to start her out by giving her a list of exceptions and allowances, starting with myself.

The reason why the body is connected to our basest instincts is because men like myself have been trained since birth to regard nudity as a sexual state. Denying this, as easy and delusional as it may be, simply does not change it at all. 

I still think little girls should be allowed to go topless. And it makes me sad to think that most people need to create a sexual distinction where none exists. Doesn't it seem like childhood was less sex-defined when we were young than it is now? A glance around the clothing section of a children's store will reveal that little boys must where dark, depressing colorless clothes and girls must wear pink and pastel clothes. It looks like all the little boys are prisoners of their parents' fears.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with you. If we lived in a world where the majority of people were as sane as you and I it would be wonderful. But if I tell my daughter that nudity is OK sometimes and a sexual act other times, depending on who the man is, it seems needlessly confusing. </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t need for her to see my genitals. It might be convenient sometimes, but I see no pressing, urgent need. Seeing them will cause a confusing set of conditional circumstances where she must be able to distinguish when it is bad and when it is good and to fathom the hundreds of kinds of motivations behind each set of circumstances related to each set of different categories of men for her to come to a decision as to whether she is being used as a sexual object in a fetish of exhibitionism or if someone is just sunbathing or changing his clothes.</p>
<p>This is all way too much for a four year old to understand. My motivation isn&#8217;t simple prudery, it is to help her understand that men who show their genitals to her are doing something they should be punished for. In order for this to be clear and without ambiguity that could be exploited by anyone, I shall decline to start her out by giving her a list of exceptions and allowances, starting with myself.</p>
<p>The reason why the body is connected to our basest instincts is because men like myself have been trained since birth to regard nudity as a sexual state. Denying this, as easy and delusional as it may be, simply does not change it at all. </p>
<p>I still think little girls should be allowed to go topless. And it makes me sad to think that most people need to create a sexual distinction where none exists. Doesn&#8217;t it seem like childhood was less sex-defined when we were young than it is now? A glance around the clothing section of a children&#8217;s store will reveal that little boys must where dark, depressing colorless clothes and girls must wear pink and pastel clothes. It looks like all the little boys are prisoners of their parents&#8217; fears.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Lars L.</title>
		<link>http://www.feministfred.com/archives/28#comment-207</link>
		<dc:creator>Lars L.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Feb 2008 08:19:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministfred.com/archives/28#comment-207</guid>
		<description>Keep in mind that this is posted by a Dane and that our cultural norms may be slightly different to yours on this point.

To answer your question, I believe you where wrong in it, by keeping your daughter away and out you where making it into something sexual to a child that would not understand the meaning of it yet, for a child or a parent, to see each other nude is not wrong, as long as there are natural reasons for it and as long as it is non-sexual.

I can completly understand the desire and wish to protect your daughter, but I believe personally that nudity should not be connected to sex, why is it that our present culture continually seem to force it towards it? Ten years ago it was common for girls to take a tan on the beach here in Denmark topless, because there was nothing sexual about it, these days its becoming much rarer, simply because our culture is slowly changing so that even partial nudity should be connected to sex.

The human body is just that, a body, why should it always be connected to one of its basest instincts?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Keep in mind that this is posted by a Dane and that our cultural norms may be slightly different to yours on this point.</p>
<p>To answer your question, I believe you where wrong in it, by keeping your daughter away and out you where making it into something sexual to a child that would not understand the meaning of it yet, for a child or a parent, to see each other nude is not wrong, as long as there are natural reasons for it and as long as it is non-sexual.</p>
<p>I can completly understand the desire and wish to protect your daughter, but I believe personally that nudity should not be connected to sex, why is it that our present culture continually seem to force it towards it? Ten years ago it was common for girls to take a tan on the beach here in Denmark topless, because there was nothing sexual about it, these days its becoming much rarer, simply because our culture is slowly changing so that even partial nudity should be connected to sex.</p>
<p>The human body is just that, a body, why should it always be connected to one of its basest instincts?</p>
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