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	<title>Comments on: Women make the rules</title>
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	<description>Radical feminism for humans with male parts.</description>
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		<title>By: eurosabr03</title>
		<link>http://www.feministfred.com/archives/22/comment-page-1#comment-80</link>
		<dc:creator>eurosabr03</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Dec 2007 18:15:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministfred.com/archives/22#comment-80</guid>
		<description>Actually, given the relative socio-economic, ability, and health statuses involved, the semiotics of the &quot;male gaze&quot;,  street harassment and generally being as @$$ about sexuality is the ONLY way I could dehumanize, oppress, or otherwise trifle with the upper-middle-class, white-collar-jobnik women I encounter on a daily basis, and why would I want to do that anyway?  It dehumanizes ME as well.

The only other point I would raise is I can&#039;t objectify someone as a f*ckdoll if I&#039;m busy respecting her agency and her decision regarding consent.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, given the relative socio-economic, ability, and health statuses involved, the semiotics of the &#8220;male gaze&#8221;,  street harassment and generally being as @$$ about sexuality is the ONLY way I could dehumanize, oppress, or otherwise trifle with the upper-middle-class, white-collar-jobnik women I encounter on a daily basis, and why would I want to do that anyway?  It dehumanizes ME as well.</p>
<p>The only other point I would raise is I can&#8217;t objectify someone as a f*ckdoll if I&#8217;m busy respecting her agency and her decision regarding consent.</p>
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		<title>By: eurosabr03</title>
		<link>http://www.feministfred.com/archives/22/comment-page-1#comment-79</link>
		<dc:creator>eurosabr03</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Dec 2007 20:07:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministfred.com/archives/22#comment-79</guid>
		<description>I thank you for sparing me the invective, and I am VERY aware of how mental maps are shaped by language, and part of this is that my &quot;map&quot; is not a very nice place, and most of it stems from not liking women as people enough to shrug off the very real effects of my social-, economic-, etc. marginalization insofar as they effect my romantic life (or lack thereof).  I do recognize that as a university-educated, chronically-ill (and hence chronically underemployed) straight white man, I already encounter society from a place of relative privilege.  I can tell you that I have more sympathy for the woman who is going to think of me as &quot;just another guy out for sex&quot; when she&#039;s approached for the 20th time that day than you think I do.  In trying to build a genuine connection, I have to be agenda-free to the point where I have NO untoward reaction to any form of rejection because I *AM* the unexpected intrusion into her day.  (We can even take a further step back and discuss how it&#039;s inherently misogynist to approach women in the absence of strong non-verbal signs of interest on their part.  Men truly ARE socialized to have no respect for women&#039;s preferences, that&#039;s just one example.  Don&#039;t think I&#039;m unaware of that.)

I think you misread the line about &quot;finding the limits&quot; in that I find the decrease in sex drive that comes with age to be a different kind of frustration than the frustration of rampant desire.  I feel that I was sold a bill of goods about what women find attractive, that I was lied to, and cheated, and made to play the fool, mainly in the context of a 1990s university indoctrination system dominated by lesbian feminists.  There are enough women excited by being dominated and by inequality that it seems to give the lie to the Sensitive New Age Guy.  Be that as it may, my praxis is not as awful as my discourse, in that whatever sex I DO have has been mainly respectful of my partners, and in order to not pass the TMI limit, I&#039;ll just say that I&#039;ve recognized and eliminated pornified preferences.

For all that, women do have a default status as dehumanized objects of desire, and wedging them firmly into that role with sexual violence and harassment does tremendous damage every day.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I thank you for sparing me the invective, and I am VERY aware of how mental maps are shaped by language, and part of this is that my &#8220;map&#8221; is not a very nice place, and most of it stems from not liking women as people enough to shrug off the very real effects of my social-, economic-, etc. marginalization insofar as they effect my romantic life (or lack thereof).  I do recognize that as a university-educated, chronically-ill (and hence chronically underemployed) straight white man, I already encounter society from a place of relative privilege.  I can tell you that I have more sympathy for the woman who is going to think of me as &#8220;just another guy out for sex&#8221; when she&#8217;s approached for the 20th time that day than you think I do.  In trying to build a genuine connection, I have to be agenda-free to the point where I have NO untoward reaction to any form of rejection because I *AM* the unexpected intrusion into her day.  (We can even take a further step back and discuss how it&#8217;s inherently misogynist to approach women in the absence of strong non-verbal signs of interest on their part.  Men truly ARE socialized to have no respect for women&#8217;s preferences, that&#8217;s just one example.  Don&#8217;t think I&#8217;m unaware of that.)</p>
<p>I think you misread the line about &#8220;finding the limits&#8221; in that I find the decrease in sex drive that comes with age to be a different kind of frustration than the frustration of rampant desire.  I feel that I was sold a bill of goods about what women find attractive, that I was lied to, and cheated, and made to play the fool, mainly in the context of a 1990s university indoctrination system dominated by lesbian feminists.  There are enough women excited by being dominated and by inequality that it seems to give the lie to the Sensitive New Age Guy.  Be that as it may, my praxis is not as awful as my discourse, in that whatever sex I DO have has been mainly respectful of my partners, and in order to not pass the TMI limit, I&#8217;ll just say that I&#8217;ve recognized and eliminated pornified preferences.</p>
<p>For all that, women do have a default status as dehumanized objects of desire, and wedging them firmly into that role with sexual violence and harassment does tremendous damage every day.</p>
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		<title>By: Fred</title>
		<link>http://www.feministfred.com/archives/22/comment-page-1#comment-78</link>
		<dc:creator>Fred</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Dec 2007 18:44:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministfred.com/archives/22#comment-78</guid>
		<description>You&#039;re no feminist, I can tell. On most feminist blogs, the response to a post like this would do you no good at all, since it would be anger and sarcasm and you would probably not read past that. But instead of arguing with you, I&#039;m just going to ask you to examine some of your assumptions. You can decide for yourself if by doing so you feel the need to argue with me, but I don&#039;t argue about things people want to believe. I just provide another point of view that you can use to understand why women might feel differently about what you&#039;ve said than you think they should feel.

As a fellow misogynist, I understand your feelings and used to accept them as fully as you do. Every man in a misogynist culture is a misogynist, the only difference being there are a few who actually don&#039;t think being a misogynist is a great way to deal with half of the world, which happens to be female.

I would paraphrase the MRA position as &quot;If I had MORE power, I&#039;d be enjoying it.&quot;

Women  find it hard to think of themselves as someone who must sexually service men. Say you have blue eyes. What if you were born into a culture that believed that men with blue eyes were also put on this planet to sexually service men? Every time some ugly guy presumes you had to bend over and take his diseased dick up your ass you would have to do it, whether or not you were aroused. This is why women feel this way. They don&#039;t really want to be the gatekeepers of sex. It&#039;s not a pleasant job, if you think about it.

Finding the limits of your hydraulics is something you think is a great idea, as if sex were some kind of athletic competition. Being denied that opportunity by women is your view, but in reality you can find those limits by jacking off to porn. Women hear something like this and think you are trying to use them to prove something. Again, put yourself in their place and see how you feel. 

You are also what feminists refer to as a &quot;Nice Guy.&quot; You expect women to be aroused by you because you are nice, and then interpret non-feminist women&#039;s response to guys who aren&#039;t nice as proof that women prefer guys who aren&#039;t nice. Arousal is never that easy, and a lot of men are successful at seduction because they are manipulative and pushy, not nice. Yet, their relations with women are pretty bad, even when the women continues to try to please them, because of the innate problems of being a woman in a misogynist world.

What you can get from feminism is a greater understanding of all the little things you don&#039;t understand about women. As men, we&#039;re trained from birth to see things from our point of view, and discouraged, if not ridiculed, for seeing things from a woman&#039;s point of view, which is dismissed by most men as incomprehensible and emotional. Most women in this world do see their job as pleasing men, and they get confusing signals about what their reward is for pleasing men sexually. If you&#039;re a slut, you get contempt and degradation, if you&#039;re a good girl, you&#039;re keeping men you don&#039;t want from sex you don&#039;t want to have. Either way, sex defines you when men relate to you, and as that realization begins to dawn on you, even subconsciously, the idea that your place in society isn&#039;t a human being, but a fuck machine. This feeling is what women call being objectified. And they feel it constantly, especially if they are good looking and young.

Here&#039;s what I think about sex. Imagine you have a daughter, and you love her like you love yourself. What kind of sex life would you want her to have? I want my daughter to have fun, to not be controlled or used by men who don&#039;t really like her or regard her as a full human being, and to have sex as a means to pleasure without stigma; as an expression of love. When you look at a woman you want to fuck, if you don&#039;t think first of how she thinks of love and sex, then you are thinking first of tits and ass; the superficial object before you who arouses you because you have been trained to respond to women this way by a pornsick world.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;re no feminist, I can tell. On most feminist blogs, the response to a post like this would do you no good at all, since it would be anger and sarcasm and you would probably not read past that. But instead of arguing with you, I&#8217;m just going to ask you to examine some of your assumptions. You can decide for yourself if by doing so you feel the need to argue with me, but I don&#8217;t argue about things people want to believe. I just provide another point of view that you can use to understand why women might feel differently about what you&#8217;ve said than you think they should feel.</p>
<p>As a fellow misogynist, I understand your feelings and used to accept them as fully as you do. Every man in a misogynist culture is a misogynist, the only difference being there are a few who actually don&#8217;t think being a misogynist is a great way to deal with half of the world, which happens to be female.</p>
<p>I would paraphrase the MRA position as &#8220;If I had MORE power, I&#8217;d be enjoying it.&#8221;</p>
<p>Women  find it hard to think of themselves as someone who must sexually service men. Say you have blue eyes. What if you were born into a culture that believed that men with blue eyes were also put on this planet to sexually service men? Every time some ugly guy presumes you had to bend over and take his diseased dick up your ass you would have to do it, whether or not you were aroused. This is why women feel this way. They don&#8217;t really want to be the gatekeepers of sex. It&#8217;s not a pleasant job, if you think about it.</p>
<p>Finding the limits of your hydraulics is something you think is a great idea, as if sex were some kind of athletic competition. Being denied that opportunity by women is your view, but in reality you can find those limits by jacking off to porn. Women hear something like this and think you are trying to use them to prove something. Again, put yourself in their place and see how you feel. </p>
<p>You are also what feminists refer to as a &#8220;Nice Guy.&#8221; You expect women to be aroused by you because you are nice, and then interpret non-feminist women&#8217;s response to guys who aren&#8217;t nice as proof that women prefer guys who aren&#8217;t nice. Arousal is never that easy, and a lot of men are successful at seduction because they are manipulative and pushy, not nice. Yet, their relations with women are pretty bad, even when the women continues to try to please them, because of the innate problems of being a woman in a misogynist world.</p>
<p>What you can get from feminism is a greater understanding of all the little things you don&#8217;t understand about women. As men, we&#8217;re trained from birth to see things from our point of view, and discouraged, if not ridiculed, for seeing things from a woman&#8217;s point of view, which is dismissed by most men as incomprehensible and emotional. Most women in this world do see their job as pleasing men, and they get confusing signals about what their reward is for pleasing men sexually. If you&#8217;re a slut, you get contempt and degradation, if you&#8217;re a good girl, you&#8217;re keeping men you don&#8217;t want from sex you don&#8217;t want to have. Either way, sex defines you when men relate to you, and as that realization begins to dawn on you, even subconsciously, the idea that your place in society isn&#8217;t a human being, but a fuck machine. This feeling is what women call being objectified. And they feel it constantly, especially if they are good looking and young.</p>
<p>Here&#8217;s what I think about sex. Imagine you have a daughter, and you love her like you love yourself. What kind of sex life would you want her to have? I want my daughter to have fun, to not be controlled or used by men who don&#8217;t really like her or regard her as a full human being, and to have sex as a means to pleasure without stigma; as an expression of love. When you look at a woman you want to fuck, if you don&#8217;t think first of how she thinks of love and sex, then you are thinking first of tits and ass; the superficial object before you who arouses you because you have been trained to respond to women this way by a pornsick world.</p>
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		<title>By: eurosabr03</title>
		<link>http://www.feministfred.com/archives/22/comment-page-1#comment-77</link>
		<dc:creator>eurosabr03</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Dec 2007 06:25:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministfred.com/archives/22#comment-77</guid>
		<description>As Hugo Schwyzer once paraphrased an MRA, &quot;If I had power, I&#039;d be enjoying it.&quot;
I agree with you on certain tenets of feminism, and their implications for male sexuality, but my view of male sexuality is more in line with the MRA view.  As someone who experienced the hypersexuality of youth, I have to agree with a (possibly apocryphal) quote of Kinsey, that if women were not gatekeepers of sex, men would live &quot;in the world of continuous orgy.&quot;  Finding the limits of one&#039;s own hydraulics after years of experiencing sex as a limited, scarce experience, always inhibited from reaching the ideal by vagaries of condoms, one&#039;s partner&#039;s personal limits, etc. no matter how positive the experience and how giving one&#039;s partners, is an appalling letdown.  No matter how patient and non-objectifying one has been, the nagging belief that women have always made it too difficult because of their criteria (because Nice Guys MAY finish last) leads one to the conclusion that being more stereotypically-masculine, more willing to perform the male gender role, would have brought FAR MORE interest from women willing to acquiesce to the performance of that role than egalitarian relationships with feminists.  I wonder if you have thought through the full implications of asking men to like women unconditionally--of course normal decency demands that their rights, humanity and agency be honored--when these men are (for the most part) going to be eternally frustrated.  Yes, there is no entitlement to sex, but what do I owe a woman whose fondest wish--to judge by her body language--is that I pass by in complete neutrality, other than doing so?  Lobbying for the enhancement of women&#039;s rights?  Yes, for the women in my life, certainly, but as an abstract aggregate whose dominance of the most sensitive aspects of my life already seems complete?  I am grimly reminded of the fact that straight women of the blogosphere often lament that their sexuality is dependent upon and shaped by that of straight men, and that many expressions of that sexuality are inimical, to say the least.  Touché.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As Hugo Schwyzer once paraphrased an MRA, &#8220;If I had power, I&#8217;d be enjoying it.&#8221;<br />
I agree with you on certain tenets of feminism, and their implications for male sexuality, but my view of male sexuality is more in line with the MRA view.  As someone who experienced the hypersexuality of youth, I have to agree with a (possibly apocryphal) quote of Kinsey, that if women were not gatekeepers of sex, men would live &#8220;in the world of continuous orgy.&#8221;  Finding the limits of one&#8217;s own hydraulics after years of experiencing sex as a limited, scarce experience, always inhibited from reaching the ideal by vagaries of condoms, one&#8217;s partner&#8217;s personal limits, etc. no matter how positive the experience and how giving one&#8217;s partners, is an appalling letdown.  No matter how patient and non-objectifying one has been, the nagging belief that women have always made it too difficult because of their criteria (because Nice Guys MAY finish last) leads one to the conclusion that being more stereotypically-masculine, more willing to perform the male gender role, would have brought FAR MORE interest from women willing to acquiesce to the performance of that role than egalitarian relationships with feminists.  I wonder if you have thought through the full implications of asking men to like women unconditionally&#8211;of course normal decency demands that their rights, humanity and agency be honored&#8211;when these men are (for the most part) going to be eternally frustrated.  Yes, there is no entitlement to sex, but what do I owe a woman whose fondest wish&#8211;to judge by her body language&#8211;is that I pass by in complete neutrality, other than doing so?  Lobbying for the enhancement of women&#8217;s rights?  Yes, for the women in my life, certainly, but as an abstract aggregate whose dominance of the most sensitive aspects of my life already seems complete?  I am grimly reminded of the fact that straight women of the blogosphere often lament that their sexuality is dependent upon and shaped by that of straight men, and that many expressions of that sexuality are inimical, to say the least.  Touché.</p>
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